Rule Debates
Moderators: BeligerAnt, petec, administrator
Re: Rule Debates
Wow, I opened a can if worms with the drones!
My view is that drones should be allowed as any other roller, and if someone can actually make one that works then good luck to them. Of course there is the issue with drone clusters where the drone part "hides" on the roof to give an advantage in the case of both entering the pit together, but I don't see this as any more of an issue than aysemetric clusters with a nano that hides in the corner to give the same benefit. All you need to do is pit the other half of the cluster, and then the drone has to come to you, which should be an easy fight.
Given the issues to actually get a drone to work I don't think we'll see it being an issue. (and if it does I'm going to add a upside down prop to my overhead bar spinner and shoot them down with a jet of air!)
As for the arena rules, I certainly agree on the need for adequate drop offs, and for arenas to be balanced. It just seemed a bit silly that our main arena is technically against the rules.
Points 2 and 4 were just housekeeping really, but I figured this was the place to put them.
My view is that drones should be allowed as any other roller, and if someone can actually make one that works then good luck to them. Of course there is the issue with drone clusters where the drone part "hides" on the roof to give an advantage in the case of both entering the pit together, but I don't see this as any more of an issue than aysemetric clusters with a nano that hides in the corner to give the same benefit. All you need to do is pit the other half of the cluster, and then the drone has to come to you, which should be an easy fight.
Given the issues to actually get a drone to work I don't think we'll see it being an issue. (and if it does I'm going to add a upside down prop to my overhead bar spinner and shoot them down with a jet of air!)
As for the arena rules, I certainly agree on the need for adequate drop offs, and for arenas to be balanced. It just seemed a bit silly that our main arena is technically against the rules.
Points 2 and 4 were just housekeeping really, but I figured this was the place to put them.
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- DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates
They were all good points, George. Sorry they got lost in drone debate!
I still state that a nano cannot "hide" anywhere in the arena that is inaccessible to the opponent the way a drone could. That's the difference and nobody has come up with an argument against that.
The fact its difficult to do a drone or whatever is immaterial. The rules need to cover all outcomes, regardless of how hard it might be.
I am very much of the opinion that antweights should be open to anyone who wants to compete within the rules and it should be democratic, so I'd be happy to vote on it and conceed if the main outcome was to allow drones without restriction. But I wouldn't give it long before someone is upset because they've been knocked out of an AWS by someone exploiting those rules. I certainly would be pretty miffed if I was fighting Robox, pushed it out and lost because the drone was still going. Or if I lost in any of the other scenarios I mentioned. Voting that way would essentially give you no right to grumble if it happened to you.
I still state that a nano cannot "hide" anywhere in the arena that is inaccessible to the opponent the way a drone could. That's the difference and nobody has come up with an argument against that.
The fact its difficult to do a drone or whatever is immaterial. The rules need to cover all outcomes, regardless of how hard it might be.
I am very much of the opinion that antweights should be open to anyone who wants to compete within the rules and it should be democratic, so I'd be happy to vote on it and conceed if the main outcome was to allow drones without restriction. But I wouldn't give it long before someone is upset because they've been knocked out of an AWS by someone exploiting those rules. I certainly would be pretty miffed if I was fighting Robox, pushed it out and lost because the drone was still going. Or if I lost in any of the other scenarios I mentioned. Voting that way would essentially give you no right to grumble if it happened to you.
Dave
Die Gracefully Robotics - Barely Even a Proper Team.
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Re: Rule Debates
I can't say I feel strongly either way, and would be happy whatever is decided, while leaning towards allowing it. I'm happy to fight (and loose) to drones if that's what is decided.
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- DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates
Then that's fair enough. I'm not going to labour it if I'm in the minority. I just imagine it's not the last we'll hear of it. 15 years doing ants has taught me a few things
Dave
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Re: Rule Debates
You've hit the nail on the head there George. That's precisely it. And if you've pitted the other half of the cluster, all of the points in the judges' books would be in your name and so you would have nothing to fear about sitting there for the remaining time; the drone would be forced into taking action.
The weight limit rule did apply in Battlebots. Notably when Witch Doctor was knocked out but Shaman was still running. The fight was terminated as the main machine (Witch Doctor) had gone out. That's why the drones were not considered an issue.DieGracefullyRobotics wrote: ↑Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:32 pm That weight limit rule applied to Robot Wars, not Battlebots. Drones were banned in Robot Wars.
A drone can only take a win in the same circumstances that a nano would take a win. If an antweight drives off and takes one half of the cluster leaving the drone, that's the same as with a nano. As for one half of the cluster being taken out and then not being able to reach the other half, you're hardly going to drive over to the edge of the arena and fall off when you could just drive around or remain stationary in the centre and claim a victory (as you would have knocked half of the cluster out and hence rulings generally if not always go that way). Of course, this is all theoretical, very unlikely to ever happen. But if it did, the current rules system would cope.
It would have to be tethered though which eliminated most options so really no more of a concern than an antweight or otherwise doing the same thing. And of course, a tether means the drone is easily knocked out of the air, giving an easy win for the opponent.
If you were to touch an opponent with a paddle, due to lack of friction in the air, the drone would not be able to oppose the forces of the motors in the antweights. Therefore it would either be pushed around or taken out of the sky. That is precisely why I didn't choose to add any kind of tether or paddle to make contact, even though I could have done; it makes for an easy win for the opponent.
- DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates
OK, officially drawing a line under drone debates as points are not really being acknowledged or developed, just repeated. When we come to publish the new rules draft it will be voted upon in democratic fashion.
If anyone has any different rule questions or points, go ahead and flag them up. Once everything is acknowledged we'll move to get a redraft done to be OKed by everyone before publishing.
If anyone has any different rule questions or points, go ahead and flag them up. Once everything is acknowledged we'll move to get a redraft done to be OKed by everyone before publishing.
Dave
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Re: Rule Debates
Perhaps my own failing to see but I was looking over the rules - where exactly is the 'no commercially available vehicles' rule and should we take more steps to implement it with the arrival of more Hexbug toys? Josh Bloxham turned up at AWS 54 with basically Witch Doctor with a sad face and a Tombstone 'clusterbot'. Regardless of the argument for whether these are real robots (I don't believe they are) if they become more commonplace what happens if we have a lot of them together and ending up on the same channels? We would need to make sure everyone's running different channels, and each robot is bonded to each one individually and trying to get just the actual toys together for a fight with everyone eager to try out is a can of worms in and of itself. Should we start turning away people who just paste cardboard over a Battlebot?
Re: Rule Debates
That's another good point, looking back on the forum the "no commercialy available vehicles" rule was debated and agreed a while ago, but it doesn't appear to have been added to the rules officially.
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Re: Rule Debates
In my opinion you should compare the likes of people buying antweight robots off the nuts and bots website and team panoramic. To hex bug toys. They both have been commercially made for at least a small profit.
If we are to ban hexbug robots we would have to ban commissioned and website bought antweight bots.
If we are to ban hexbug robots we would have to ban commissioned and website bought antweight bots.
Re: Rule Debates
Do you have the link to the topic handy for that?That's another good point, looking back on the forum the "no commercialy available vehicles" rule was debated and agreed a while ago, but it doesn't appear to have been added to the rules officially.
I am personally on the fence with this one. I want to encourage folks to come into the roboteering community as a whole so would not be in favour of this but at the same time, I am in favour of this in so much as I don't want robots being vanilla copies of each other and want to encourage innovation/technical achievements for and between the various teams.
For non-AWS events, I'd be OK with commercially available robots simply to allow inexperienced teams to enter into the sport but for AWS events specifically, unless they were extensively modified (though I appreciate that what is defined as extensive is a non-trivial matter of debate, possibly answered in the topic referred to), I'd possibly fall in favour of supporting this.
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