EDFs

A discussion forum for proposed changes to the AWS rules (2014)

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razerdave
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Re: EDFs

Post by razerdave »

Ill get back to this when I am not at work, I've got a lot to say about the points above.

I will say as a short thing: Don't ban EDF's...beat them. One way or another, they can be.
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Re: EDFs

Post by razerdave »

Ok, so here goes nothing:

First off: EDF's; don't ban them, beat them. We as a community seem to be getting complacent (I'm very guilty of that). I don't like EDF's either but they can be beaten, probably by someone with better driving skills than me.

Secondly: The top 3 of the last few events have been Scott, Andy and Alex for 1 reason above all others: They can drive! Alex has the luxury of a practise partner Rory, who came 4th incidentally), and Scott and Andy both have many years experience and have now hit upon quite possibly their best controllable robot, so it's little wonder they've been handing our collective rear ends to is for the last 3 or 4 events. We need to improve (controllability is high on my list of things to change now Stewie and Baphomet are getting a rebuild and Baby Hell is getting retired for something new).

As for changing the arena to discourage the EDF's, a lip round the edge of the arena (about 6mm high) would help due to their floor hugging nature (gives machines a chance to drive over or away from them), and it should also help with accidental drive offs (Damn you Lemmings!!! ;) ).
Remote-Controlled Dave
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Re: EDFs

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave »

The point I made wasn't a criticism, nor was it about "flack". It was just what I perceive to be true and, actually, Alex's speech about his reasons for building echo what I was saying. I wasn't stating we should all build purposely poor robots just so someone else wins. Its just more what Dave said - experiments and designs from better builders and drivers will often consistently triumph over those of us who cant build as well as them. I was just pointing out that that's not really a reason to want to ban stuff, and I don't see much difference between that and what's happening here with EDFs, even with all the further comments. I don't see how anything I said wasn't "civil" either. If it was because I mentioned names, what was I supposed to say, "the same three builders keep winning"? All I meant was this is what happens in sports - the cream rises to the top and, for the rest of us, it isn't always about trying to win. We all have different reasons for continuing to take part and I would carry on even if ALBOF won every event from here til doomsday, as would all of you passionate people. But my reasons for entering are very different from Alex and Scott's ones.

As for Andy not entering ALBOF at the next one, he's reigning champion, so he should enter it. Don't think we've had an AWS where the champ has failed to turn up to fight for their crown.
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Shakey
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Re: EDFs

Post by Shakey »

Oh I wasn't saying you weren't civil at all Dave, just trying to ensure the convo doesn't tend that way. The flack isn't necessarily from what you said in you post, I know you don't mean any malice. :) I just got the feeling that people may think I'm in this for different reasons to everyone else (for the fun) and wanted to clear that up rather than being some person who does well because their one aim is to win AWSs regardless of the experience of themselves and others.
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Re: EDFs

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave »

I don't believe for one minute that anyone does this without having fun (well, maybe Gemma sometimes...). I just mean our fun comes from different places.
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Rapidrory
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Re: EDFs

Post by Rapidrory »

I'll be sad if Andy retires ALBOF before the next AWS; It would be much more fun to see it legitimately beaten/ smashed to bits :L
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Occashokka
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Re: EDFs

Post by Occashokka »

I don't think it's faced one of pete's under cutters yet I'm sure they could cause it some issues
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Re: EDFs

Post by EpicentrE »

If people disagree with me on this, that is honestly fine. I didn't make this thread so I could say "BAN ALL EDFS BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THEM". I made the thread to start a discussion. My issue is that people seem to either be misunderstanding or ignoring the points that I actually raise, and instead responding either with hyperbole or things that aren't relevant to my arguments. So let's try again.

All examples refer to two machines fighting that are equally well designed, well engineered, and well driven.

Yes, spinners, axes, crushers, and obviously any anti-EDF weapon systems that people come up with are going to cause EDFs issues.
Yes, there are other instances in the hobby where a certain type of robot has a natural advantage over another type of robot.

In the first instance, unless you have one of those weapons that is a counter to an EDF, you have very little chance of beating it, as the control of the battle afforded by being able to consistently get under your opponent and being almost impossible to push is enormous.
In the second instance, the match-up becomes harder, but is not insurmountable.

An example of the first instance would be Void or Stanley vs ALBOF. Neither Void nor Stanley have anything that is a counter to EDFs, and as such the battle becomes incredibly difficult.
An example of the second would be Void vs Stanley. Void historically has poor performance against 4wd pushers, however the battle is still winnable depending on who is better on the day.

I believe the first example is unhealthy; it increases the effect which luck has on the competition, as the way the draw plays out has a much bigger effect. Had ALBOF been drawn against some spinners, axes, or any other weapon which counters it, it's likely someone else would have won the competition. As it did not, it was undefeated. It also makes people feel the need to build something specifically to counter one other type of bot (something we've already seen starting), which again I think is unhealthy, as whether your design is effective or not is once again left up to the bracket to decide.
I believe the second example is healthy; finding that your robot or type of robot has a disadvantage against something else encourages you to find ways to minimise that, whether that be through design or driving. As already mentioned, Void historically has issues with 4wd pushers, however with each new version I adjust and improve aspects of the design to try to minimise those issues.

A robot has very little chance of beating an equally well designed/engineered/driven EDF if it does not specifically have the weaponry/design to counter it.
A robot has varying chances of beating other types of robot dependant on their weaponry, but it is achievable without needing to change your weaponry/design completely.

I hope that my argument is clear now.

Disclaimer: I am aware that there are still some instances where certain types of robots have a much larger advantage against others, such as horizontal spinners vs. heavily armoured wedges/flippers, but I think these are going to get more balanced in the future as our changing arena designs increases the effectiveness of spinners and makes people want to build them more. The EDF issue I believe is not affected by arena design.
Scott Fyfe-Jamieson, Captain of Epic Robotics. Champion of AWS38/41/42.
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razerdave
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Re: EDFs

Post by razerdave »

Just a small point Scott: EDF's are basically pushers. Given our previous discussion about the dominance of pushers (and subsequent arena change), arena design would affect them (the lip I mentioned for example would help).
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Re: EDFs

Post by EpicentrE »

Yeah Dave, I realise that, but as we've already been looking at changing arena designs to balance things out (which I think has been successful, although we could still go further) I didn't want to include that in this discussion. We've only seen EDFs in pushers so far, but there's no reason you couldn't build one into another type of bot, and the advantages gained by doing so would be the same.
Scott Fyfe-Jamieson, Captain of Epic Robotics. Champion of AWS38/41/42.
http://www.epicrobotics.co.uk
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