Morgrugyn Destruction (Non-AWS) - 30 May 2015 - Caerphilly

[EpicentrE]

I think Rhys' point was more that it took a powerful flipper, good control and good driving to get people over the walls. Once you see the videos you'll see it was rarely a case of get under > push > flip out (like it is in many feather fights, for example). There was an awful lot of jockeying for position and failed flip attempts before succeeding. I'm unsure as to which opinion I'm more fond of (small pits with limited low walls or small pits with no low walls), but I'd certainly like to try both.

@Max: Of course it's going to be very hard to ever perfectly balance it, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to try. With the right combination of elements we should be able to make it more balanced than it is currently, which is all we're aiming for.

[Rhys]

I think you're mis-quoting me here. I never said I'd like walls that "advantage robots like Void and Anticide". I want a wall which make it a challenge to win a fight. I then said that the only ones who consistently did that yesterday were Void and Anticide. Higher walls will give an advantage to a well designed, good flipper instead of giving a badly designed, poor one an equal chance. It's about designing and building, as well as driving on the day. So why shouldn't a powerful flipper have an advantage going into a fight? Big walls give an advantage to a powerful flipper in the same way that 50% drop-off mean a 4wd pusher has an advantage over a 2wd pusher.

Ah, I see that while typing this, Scott has just clarified what I was trying to say initally.

[Shakey]

It seems odd to me that people are favouring walls "that only advantage robots like Void and Anticide" over walls that don't advantage anyone!

I'm trying to say that making a higher wall to 'challenge' robots like anticide/void is silly as yes it challenges them but makes it downright impossible for many other robots. If someone puts the effort in to design a robot powerful enough to clear a wall that is far from average it shouldn't be punished at the expense of the average robot. It was by no means easy for them anyway, it bought driving and skill into play much more than before.

[Remote-Controlled Dave]

But why have a gap above walls at all? That's what I mean. Those American designs with the pits don't have any wall that you can punt someone over, whether you're capable or not. They rely on driving skill to get your opponent into the pit, whether from a powerful flip or just a nudge. Having a wall that certain robots can punt others over that others cannot will always give an advantage to the robots that can.

I thought the idea is to level the playing field? Some people don't have the skills to build powerful machines. The people who can already have enough of an advantage (as Scott proves with Void, winning in almost any configuration) so why give them another one? Those guys are both phenomenal builders AND drivers, but the arena should allow for the vaguest possibility that they can still lose to an amateur, otherwise we become elitist.

[Shakey]

But why have a gap above walls at all? That's what I mean. Those American designs with the pits don't have any wall that you can punt someone over, whether you're capable or not. They rely on driving skill to get your opponent into the pit, whether from a powerful flip or just a nudge. Having a wall that certain robots can punt others over that others cannot will always give an advantage to the robots that can.

I thought the idea is to level the playing field? Some people don't have the skills to build powerful machines. The people who can already have enough of an advantage (as Scott proves with Void, winning in almost any configuration) so why give them another one? Those guys are both phenomenal builders AND drivers, but the arena should allow for the vaguest possibility that they can still lose to an amateur, otherwise we become elitist.

I'm trying to do the opposite, I'm trying to allow amateurs to still have a chance. The reason to still have a wall is that it provides a way of getting someone out the arena, the walls require driving skill there's no 'punting someone over'. If we have complete enclosure with 2 pits then suddenly obscene spinners have a great advantage. A balance is being honed in on that is a mix of dropoff, low wall and highwall (to roof height wall). I don't see how we are giving powerful bots an advantage, it's been made harder for powerful bots too it's just that for every degree harder you make it the powerful bots feel it less than weak ones because of their power. It's like when after Stanley won the AWS the first time the arena changed to enclose the dropoffs. It made it harder for everyone but Stanley still did its thing, you have to accept some robots will always do well because they are good and you can't continue punishing them for it while making it harder for everyone to catchup.

On the full enclosure and 2 pits, we also have to accept as a community we are nearly at time capacity at AWS's. I love longer fights but we're already hard pressed to run events.

As said at least watch the video of the event before sharpening the pitchforks.

[Remote-Controlled Dave]

You've pretty much completely misunderstood me there Alex. Half the things you've said I've said were pretty much the opposite of what I said. I said that a good robot will always have an advantage because they are good. People like yourself, Scott and Andy always do well no matter what, because you have good robots and driving skill, REGARDLESS of the arena type. But nothing can change the fact that a wall with an open top is a possible win for a flipper or a vertical spinner ONLY. A pushbot, a crusher, an axe, could never get a robot over the top, therefore there is an advantage in favour of those types, whereas all types can make use of a drop off or a pit. Pitchforks?? Bit harsh!
The event of Saturday was a room full of very dedicated antweight people having a great time and discussing possible changes on behalf of the rest of us, but not all of us were represented. All I'm trying to do is bring another perspective. You all got to play in an arena with these walls that it is now a challenge to get your opponent out of, and you cant wait to take on that challenge, but that doesn't represent everyone, or every style of robot, or every style of builder. You're already stating how tall you think the walls should be, without actually asking people who couldn't attend what their opinion is. Maybe they'll all think its as wonderful an idea as you, but maybe some of us wont. I think I'm allowed to express that opinion without being accused of a witch-hunt!
I also don't see why "waiting to see the video" matters. I'll watch the fights and enjoy them but seeing it doesn't change my fundamental point. I've already seen the spinner annihilator where Test Robot Please Ignore did indeed manage to punt Vortex over one of the walls. So there we go. The only point I have tried to make has been shown as valid, and I'm still being accused of being on the attack.

[Rhys]

Aaaanyway... Getting this back on topic...

Here's the Antlogs:

Warm-up

Main Event

You'll have to ignore the massive administrative cock-up in group 1 of the main event. I tried to add a robot after the draw was done. It meant that Combatant incorrectly got eliminated. But we went back and rejigged it and now it's mostly correct.

[Remote-Controlled Dave]

Sorry, I thought the whole point of this event, and this topic, was to create debate about ways to change main AWS events?

[Shakey]

I meant the pitchforks thing as a joke to try and lighten things, boy did that backfire. I think I did misunderstand you slightly over the reason for full height walls, am I right in thinking your saying they are fair as no one can advantage from a full height wall (Though I think spinners do)? I'm trying to make the point that the arena needs a balance between a mix of wall types, more dropoff advantages pushers, more low wall flippers, more high wall spinners. "You're already stating how tall you think the walls should be, without actually asking people who couldn't attend what their opinion is. Maybe they'll all think its as wonderful an idea as you, but maybe some of us wont. I think I'm allowed to express that opinion without being accused of a witch-hunt!" I don't see how you can have a go at me for expressing my opinion then also for (misinterpretedly) thinking I wasn't allowing you to express yours.

Back to topic though. Thanks Rhys, I'll add names and start of rounds into the video now. It's slowly coming together, had some slight fun in that the two cameras used have the same method of timestamping so I've had to separate the video by camera and can't load both at the same time. Would it be best to upload everything as one or warmup, tournament and side stuff seperately? I'm thinking the latter.

I've got a load of ideas to sort through for my team and think I've finally worked out how to stop Test self destructing every event. XD Carbons in for a redesign though, it's decent but something just isn't right with the design for me.

[Remote-Controlled Dave]

As Max stated, no arena will ever be completely fair to all types of robot, and a good quality robot will always have a natural advantage over a...more amateurish foe. But my only point was that those kind of walls favour two types over others, which I think needs to be avoided if we are talking about crowd-funding a new arena. I don't really think spinners get an advantage in what I'm proposing. They certainly have less chance of flying out of their own accord as they do now but they can still ricochet down the drop offs at any moment.
The 'insect' arena that was used at RoboGames last year was simple, easily constructed and had minimal advantages to any one type of robot. The results in those fights were varied and unpredictable, and I think that's where the roots of this conversation came from - to minimise the advantage of pushers and EDFs and to even out the playing field a bit. I simply don't want us to head in a direction where everyone feels they have to build flippers, or spinners, or any one type to succeed. It should be down to the quality of the robot and the driver. That was my only point.
I'm sorry it got all heated. I am tired at the moment, and, quite frankly, gutted I can't get to these smaller events. Its hard enough getting Gemma to let me spend our holiday allowances doing 3 AWSs a year! But I am currently sat around wondering what to build for July, and I could almost feel myself going "best just build flippers again then" with the talk that was happening. Just wanted to address it.