Dominance of pushers at AWS46

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Remote-Controlled Dave
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:20 pm

Times have changed since those "much deliberated" rules were, er, deliberated though. It used to be illegal for any public transport not to carry a bale of hay and a tub of water, but that's not so much in step since we don't use many horses anymore.

I do agree with the triangle pits though, they can create a grey area, especially if they're not deep enough (though I'm sure they would be). Is there any room for a square pit in each corner, but with one side completely open and one side with a small wall (with the other two sides forming the battlebox walls)? The low wall side could be set so that no two pits are quite the same, and it should still leave enough space for fighting.

One thing I will add is that I think we've become rather frightened of testing out arenas/concepts/ideas at AWS events. Its become so that smaller events have to be put on to do testing, whilst AWSs stick to rigid, official formulas. Whilst I agree with this in many ways, it doesn't mean I'd necessarily be against a more experimental AWS. Maybe it'll lead to unexpected winners, or the old reliables succeeding anyway, but it doesn't mean it cant be a fun event with an official result. I remember there was one AWS where Peter tested out an arena and found a lot of robots couldn't go down the drop off because of an oversight with his curved roof. This was then addressed and fixed by the next competition but the event wasn't a failure in its own right.

Maybe we should embrace a 'wacky' AWS with a new arena design to play in, whether it has faults or not? Things can always go back to how they were if it isn't as well received.

Just a thought.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Rapidrory » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:45 pm

I'll run any arena people like at my AWS as long as it doesn't make the day needlessly long :P
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:14 am

I take your point about a triangular pit but I was assuming that in most cases robots would be being pushed along the wall so it wouldn't be so much of a problem just a little further to push. That would change dramatically if we add small angled walls.
Here is a sketch of the corner with tringular, quarter round and square pit shape.
The robot positions that tipping should roughly occur for a 100x130mm robot are shown for each shape in the same colour.
Image

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by EpicentrE » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:25 am

That diagram confused the hell out of me until I realise that the corner of the arena was in the top left.

I think, as Dave has said, we should be willing to try new things at an AWS and see what happens. It's not like once you've built the arena it can never be modified; things like adding or removing small walls, or changing the sizes of the pits, shouldn't be too difficult to do if we agree that there are problems with whatever initial configuration you decide on.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Hogi » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:38 pm

let's try it.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:19 pm

One other question I ment to ask is about Polycarb thickness.
In the rules it states that 4mm is the minimum reocommended but I am not covinced that is necessary for all parts.
Obviously a curved lid is easier in thinner material if all parts of the curved part of the cover upto say 20cm high have a second layer of say 2mm polycarb could I get away with 3 or even 2 mm material.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Shakey » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:25 pm

I don't think thinner is a good idea. Some of the spinners are gouging very deeply into polycarbonate and there's not a tiny chance of one hitting the roof either.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:03 pm

Yeah, only takes a spinner to launch another spinner roofwards.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:44 pm

I wasn't suggesting that a spinner couldn't hit the roof but it can't really stay there gradually cutting through as it can at arena level.
Also thinner material tends to give more and can therfore absorb some of the impact that way.
I am just not sure how easy it will be to bend 4mm around the curve and keep it there under tension.
My old curved top arena was only 2mm but spinners have moved on quite a bit since then.
I could use two sheets of 2mm but I am not sure how slight variations of contact between the sheets might effect the visibility.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Shakey » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:57 pm

That's the thing, a spinner like Test (HSODs blade in it) doesn't need to cut gradually, it does the gouge in a single hit and is quite good at getting a bite out of anything even flimsy stuff.

Image

The force it was using to bite the cans with is far less than if a spinner got booted into the roof.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:09 pm

I know what you mean I can't quite convince myself either but 2mm polycarb is a lot stronger and more resiliant than 0.15 mm aluninium.
But rules are rules so I guess I will have to find a way to use 4mm if I ever build it.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:52 pm

The curve does offer a bit more resistence though. I don't think it'd be much trouble for the roof part. The square bit around the edge will still be thick as you say.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:35 pm

Finally made some decisions on the new arena.
Due to the difficulties of wraping 4 mm polycarb around the curve I have settled on two layeres of 2mm.
The base of the arena will have four 25 cm square corner pits built into the frame but the arena surface sheet can be cut to any of the three options so it can be adapted if necessary.
The end 6mm plates are 980 x 600 with 300mm radius so the cover will have a flat top and sides. This for some reason turns out much cheaper than getting a semi circle cut.
The arena will have a 2mm polycarb 100 mm high wall that completely surrounds the fighting area and pits to reduce damage to the larger polycarb sheets.
The cover will either be free standing or hinged and will be lifted from one end to allow access as with my previous domed arena.
Hopefully if my measurmants are correct and I can lift it the arena can be transported fully assembled.
I am not sure how long it will take as I have just ordered enough laminante flooring for three rooms so I might be busy elsewhere but at least the polycarb is on order so I have to build it.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by joey_picus » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:25 pm

Two layers of 2mm might actually work better than one 4mm layer when it comes to direct contact; I don't know if the physics translate that well to these thicknesses but back in the Robot Wars days I believe a few robots had dual-skin polycarbonate armour specifically to fight spinners since the interface between the panels took a lot of the energy out of the impact, and left the inner layer mostly intact in the worst case, while thicker one-ply panels just shattered and left a big hole :) I was around for the end of the old domed arena (my first event!) and I'm hoping either the hinges are stronger this time or we remember to shout at anyone lifting the cover too high...

EDIT: I'm guessing that's a CAD of a scale model of the arena going on the measurements, hehe...
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:00 pm

Yes sorry that is 1/10 scale.

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