Dominance of pushers at AWS46

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Remote-Controlled Dave
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:36 pm

Great Peter. I look forward to fighting in it. I'm guessing its quite a long stretch to have it ready for the AWS?
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Hogi » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:41 am

could we book this arena for antweight open please Peter if it's done in time? ( late november )
Featherweight under construction.

Antweight to build list: 4Wd lifter, new clusterbot, secret project, walker of some description.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by BeligerAnt » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:09 am

peterwaller wrote:Yes sorry that is 1/10 scale.
"Robots must fit in a 10mm cube and weigh no more than 150mg" :D

- Anyone up for a challenge? ;)
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:13 am

The AWS is unlikely but November should be fine I will post on any progress or problems as I go.
One thing I might try and include is some internal lighting as curved surfaces can have reflection problems with overhead lighting.
Its no good trying to improve the visibility of the robots if all you can see is reflections. :oops:
Here it is with the proper dimensions.
Image
I will probably start with the quarter circle shaped pits as shown in red.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Max » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:47 am

Hi,
Don't want to start another debate but one thing that strikes me when I see this design, it seems to favour pushers; by going with the idea that we shouldn't have low walls etc. as they are unfair to pushers as they can't really use them it now sort of means there is no point building anything other than pushers! With the 4 pits like that the best strategy would be to build a 4 wheel drive rambot with a scoop or wedge, an argument could be made for a grabber to help grab your opponent and drop them in the pit.
But there seems to be virtually no point in building a lifter or flipper as there are no walls to throw robots over, likewise for vertical spinners and drums and for horizontal spinners there is a very high risk of falling into pit if you also go flying off from a big hit.
It seems to me that to be fair an arena should have some limited push/drop off for pushers, some low walls for lifters, some higher walls for pneumatic flippers and vertical spinners/drums and a reasonable amount of wall round the outside to stop horizontal spinners flying out.

Personally I felt the arena at the last AWS worked really well, our teams pushers had enough drop off to push out opponents but it still required skill, and our vertical spinner was able to thow robots over the low walls, and likewise pneumatic flippers were able to throw robots out. All it may lacked were some very low walls (like 10-20mm) for lifters to lift over.

I'm not saying don't build that arena, by all means let's give it a go but I would suggest leaving enough flexibility in the design to revert to an arena more like the last AWS.
Just my (rather lengthy) 2 pence!

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:45 pm

But lifters/flippers/spinners ect can still use the pits. They can still fire robots into them. And a lifter/flipper usually uses the weapon to turn the robot over and control them to the pits.

The way I read what you're saying Max is that only pushers can use pits but you can easily launch a robot over into the corners to land in the pits of a disc or flipper too.

I would also argue that any arena that has a certain amount of drop off gives a certain advantage to a good pusher. Whilst we have drop off, there is always a relatively good reason to build a pushbot. But I don't really see how this configuration favours pushers beyond that. Everyone can use the corner pits.

The way the arena was configured at the last AWS is precisely what caused the pusher bias debate to start in the first place, so its a bit odd to state that it worked really well!

Peter, are you planning on modifying the current arena into this one, or is it a completely separate idea? Just as I know Rory wanted to use your arena if Scott couldn't get theirs to the AWS and it'd be awkward if he asked and you were mid modifications.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:28 pm

Max I think as discussions have shown it is not easy to predict how arena design will work in practice and I have tried to keep it so it is adaptable.
The basic arena will have 4 25cm square pits built in but by having lay in sheets they can be adapted to the curved or triangular shape.
With the square shape drop offs it will be easy to add walls of any length and height to any of the eight dropoff edges as seems appropriate.
Dave this will be a completely new arena so the old one will still be available in the mean time.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:34 pm

Excellent :-)
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Max » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:57 pm

Yeah I see what you are saying Dave, I still think what I said is true but like I said before I'm very happy to see how the new design works and will be happy to be proved wrong. As long as the arena is adaptable so it can be changed if necessary then I'm all for experimenting!

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:05 pm

I think the debate can probably be closed with the statement "the arena last time didn't quite work best, so lets experiment with new ones".
Fun times ahead.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Ellis » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:09 pm

Great to see a new arena in the works. Although I too think it still heavily favours pushers.

Not to be blunt, I don't mean to slam anyone, but there seems to be a global assumption that an arena should have 2 or more pits/dropoffs in ants. Why is this the case? Why does an arena need more than one pit, like in every other class? Isn't 4 pits that have 2 open sides a bit much?

It would seem that this shape arena actually aids pushers even more than others unless I'm missing something. Now not only can you push a robot over the lip of the pit perpendicular to the long-side wall, you can do the same from the short side wall. In all cases in either direction. Even more than ever if you have a robot in front of you, you can just drive forwards at random and chances are very high you'll put someone in one of the pits, either cleanly or with a bit of wall slide.

Robots are pushed out all the time, in all other classes, with just one pit. Why not have a single pit in ants?

---

On the wall-sliding note, I like Robogames' solution: http://theawesomer.com/photos/2010/05/0 ... ames_t.jpg - jagged walls. You can't push anything consistently along a wall like that. I should think such a thing would be relatively easy to implement and look pretty cool.

Just some thoughts and as last time I posted her eI don't claim to know much at all about antweights or ant combat, just looking in from the outside.

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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:43 pm

I think the main thing people who look at ants from the outside miss is that we are looking to have SHORTER fights. A single pit is great, I'd love to fight in an arena like that, but this can create long fights that don't go anywhere. We HAVE to fit an entire AWS into a single day, and run double elimination, so time is a huge factor. Both the heavyweight and featherweight champs run over at least two days, and often feature melees as round one, so there is plenty of time to play with. These are things we've decided we don't want in ants, so every fight lasting 2mins with a hundred entries just isn't feasible.

Yes, a single pit would be great. But we'd have to lose out elsewhere to accommodate it. We take our AWSs as seriously as you guys take your main, once-a-year champs in the other categories, so keeping things fair, even, running smoothly AND finishing on time all come as important in the roster as will a fight be any good, if not more so.
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