Arenarules

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Re: Arenarules

Postby Craig_Anto3 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:31 pm

Acryllic will shatter it should not be used as protective screens
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Re: Arenarules

Postby earthwormjim » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:39 pm

PBx wrote:I would heartily support the ditch all the way round with a stated wall height for the non-push off areas.
I am just putting a practice arena together and will be adopting this approach.


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Re: Arenarules

Postby razerdave » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:47 pm

When I built my RL arena it was meant to have removable walls do robots could be pushed out, but I prefer my own arena with the 4 walls you can flip over (or through in a few cases) and the pit in the corner, takes a bit more skill.

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Re: Arenarules

Postby Remote-Controlled Dave » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:02 pm

Well, I, for one, would definitely object to an arena with low walls as the non-drop-off sides (like I object to Oliver's arena). This type of arena is highly bias towards flippers in such a way as to make it unfair. Basically, if you have a flipper, all four sides of the arena become a drop off zone if you only have low walls. Oliver even said to me once that he built his arena for this reason, that it was easier for his robots to win in it.
Jim, you say "pushers have the drop off zones, what's the point in building a flipper?" I think this is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. Its the same kind of thinking as when Andrew Hibbard said it should be in the rules that if a spinner throws itself out from its own inertia, it should be allowed to be put back in so the battle can continue. Its completely bias and unacceptable to have an area of an arena where ONLY flippers can get their opponent out on two sides. The drop off zone is not "just for pushers", its for all types of design. People build flippers for many reasons, to discombobulate the other robot's driver by turning them over, to lift their oppoents wheels off the ground so they can push them out, or, in the case of Anticide or Flippant, to throw them out from the arena centre. If you introduce low walls into the equation too, then the whole thing is in favour of any robot with a flipper. Anticide wouldn't even have to drive, it could just launch its opponent from the centre in any direction and it would go out.
The only way I wouldn't object to this idea is if you had two solid walls, one straight drop off, and one side with low walls, but this would be against the 50% drop off rule. I would personally always argue that any arena with 2 straight drop off zones, and two sides with low walls and a ditch gives an unfair advantage to flippers and therefore should not be used for official events.
Arenas and rules have to be kept so that one single type of robot is in no way at an advantage over other types. The last thing I want is for ants to go like heavyweights, where everyone feels they HAVE to build a flipper or else they are at an automatic disadvantage. That type of arena would do this, and I notice the only people who've said its a good idea are the people who own a flipper.
Listen guys, there are fundamental rules to antweight combat. The weight limit, the cube rule, and the fact we have drop off zones are all quinessential rules that form the spine of antweight combat. Someone said about removing the cube rule recently and a few people supported it, but its not going to happen. We are not looking to "add new dimensions to antweight combat". The dimensions are all set, then you build your robot within those parameters however you like. People who own a flipper would like to be able to throw people out over all sides of the arena. People with a spinner would like to fight in a fully enclosed arena. People who build pushers would probably welcome a drop off on all four sides. Maybe people would like to reduce the drop off zone. None of these things are going to happen. They are the RULES and they are in place so that no one type of robot has an advantage over any other type. We don't need "new dimensions to antweight combat". We need to keep the sport as it is, and make the robots more innovative. Trying to change the arena to suit your robot is just a form of cheating.
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Re: Arenarules

Postby Psychostorm » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:19 pm

razerdave wrote:When I built my RL arena it was meant to have removable walls do robots could be pushed out, but I prefer my own arena with the 4 walls you can flip over (or through in a few cases) and the pit in the corner, takes a bit more skill.

I beg to disagree Dave. It takes no skill at all to fall into that pit! :D Done it loads of times.

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Re: Arenarules

Postby earthwormjim » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:45 pm

Fair point Dave. I agree with everything you said.I still think it would be nice,in theory,to have a section of the arena that would enable flippers to flip out an opponant. And I honestly think it would add excitement,and entertainment to antweight battles.(not that they are not so already!)
And I think it is within the rules to do so,in fact the rules that are currently in place"recommend" the height of the walled area of an arena to be 50mm,not all the way to the top of the battlebox,as they all are at the moment.

3c) At least half of the edge of the arena must be unwalled, to allow robots to drop directly into the ditch that surrounds the arena (a recommended height for arena walls is 50mm).

Cheers Jim. :)
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Re: Arenarules

Postby Remote-Controlled Dave » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:04 pm

Yes, it would be within the rules Jim, which is why Oliver's arena has been used before for AWSs. All I'm saying is I would strongly object to it, and if there was an alternative, which there usually is, I'd say use that one instead.
Personally, I think dropping the drop off zone from 50% to 25% would make for much better competitions, but again, its not really about personal thinking, its about across the board fairness. That, and a 25% drop off would probably increase the length of some fights, and we have enough problem squeezing everything into a day at the moment as is, lol.
But, in the fairness of competition, I would always have to object to low walls/less drop offs, putting aside all my personal wishes.
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Re: Arenarules

Postby razerdave » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:53 pm

I would prefer arenas with only 25% drop off because they make spinner fights last longer and generally adds a tougher element to the matches (I am sure people that have attended snibston would agree).

So what kind of arena would suit everyone ? I would say 2 low walls, one solid wall and one drop off. More walls for spinners to bounce off rather than fly out of, 3 walls you can throw out off (not all 4, so it would take some driving at least to flip to the right walls), and somewhere for robots to be pushed out.

Not in the AWS rules, and kinda biased against the active weapons, but thats cool by me :)

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Re: Arenarules

Postby bitternboy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:10 pm

I think 2 solid walls, a low wall and a drop off would be preferable.
Also, Dave I agree, The arenas should't give an advantage to one particular weapon class but if someone comes up with an interesting and fun design that doesn't give an advantage to anyone then we should embrace it (not literally though).
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Re: Arenarules

Postby Shakey » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:58 pm

I like that idea Dave but something should be there to discourage corner sitting. Such as angle the corners so it isn't as effective as other wise you end up of 2 minutes of root A sitting in the corner while Robot B is attempting to get it out of it and not much else happening.
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Re: Arenarules

Postby earthwormjim » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:16 pm

I reckon 2 drop off sides,one low wall,and one tall wall,that way it would fit the current rules.Also,if we reduce the amount of drop off to less than 50%,we are reducing the effectiveness of pushers,which would be unfair,I think.
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Re: Arenarules

Postby PBx » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:52 pm

This is all presuming that the arena is a parallelogram. After carefully reading the rules, I'm now not sure what rule "3b) The arena will be a raised platform with an area of at least 30 inches (762mm) square." is actually saying.

Does it say the arena must be a square of side >= 30 inches OR that the arena can be any shape as long as as the area is greater than 30 sq inches? :oops: Small point perhaps, but sure makes a big difference.

I'm struggling to see why moving the battlebox away from the walled sides only favours flippers, surely it favours spinners more. When a spinner hits (especially the more modern vertical spinners) the 'victim' is usually shot into the air. With the box away from the wall the 'victim' would shoot over the wall, hit the box, and drop, rather than just bouncing back into the arena. For a flipper you would have to get them close to the wall (or trapped against it) to be able to get them over it.
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Re: Arenarules

Postby earthwormjim » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:04 pm

I read it as any shape,as long as the area is greater than 90 sq inch ?
But I may be wrong! :-?
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Re: Arenarules

Postby BeligerAnt » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:20 pm

Just to clarify:
1. We are not changing the rules, as we haven't yet got round to publishing the ones we've just agreed! My bad :oops:
2. What the rules don't prohibit is consequently permitted. This brings several variables into arena design, which are at the discretion of the designer. The rules have always intentionally been this way to encourage a diversity of arenas, robots etc so long as everything remains safe.
3. The 50% drop-off is one of the fundamental antweight rules and is non-negotiable. The 50% does not have to be two complete sides - there are many other valid solutions.

Some thoughts:
The arena doesn't have to be square, and it doesn't have to be only 900 sq in (30" x 30"). It may be any shape (within reason) and bigger than 900 sq in (again within reason). The practical limiting factors are the size and cost of a suitable battlebox and transport considerations.
Clearly a 225" x 4" arena would fit the rules but not be terribly practical!

The walls on the non-drop-off 50% may be any height, but 50mm is considered a practical minimum. It's high enough to make it very difficult (if not nigh-on impossible) for most flippers (lifters) to get an opponent over. Vertical spinners are perhaps more likely (than a lifter) to throw an opponent over such a wall. Making the walls 'infinite' height (i.e. part of the battlebox) is a practical consideration to make the battlebox smaller.

The drop-off sections may be any size, quantity and position, although clearly a gap of less than 100mm really doesn't count as a gap at all, and anything less than about 200mm is actually really difficult to push an opponent through. There is nothing to stop you building an arena with drop-offs in each corner, or in the middle of each wall, or any other combination, but all will require a bigger battlebox than the Peter Waller / PeteC solutions of having two walls which are the sides of the battlebox. Oliver's arena, and the one built by Tim (Cavecrusher) have larger battleboxes to accomodate a ditch beyond the arena walls.

There is no rule on the height of the battlebox, but practically, 600mm is sufficient. PeteC's is probably around 400mm and I don't think it has ever really been a problem. From a practical point of view, if you have low(ish) walls then the lid really needs to open to allow robots to be retrieved from the ditches.

An arena 36" x 25" meets the area requirements and would fit in a battlebox 48" x 37" which should easily fit into most cars (accepting that you probably need to fold at least some of the seats down). There are many other solutions; a 42" square battlebox is needed to house a 30" square arena with drop-offs on all sides.

A compromise on battlebox size could be obtained by having one side of the arena formed by the battlebox wall, with the 50% drop-off spread between the remaining 3 sides. This would reduce the battlebox for a 30" square arena to 36" x 42". Perhaps the optimum solution would be an arena about 34" x 27" in a battlebox 40" square...?

As can be seen from my ramblings, there are many many solutions, but cost is always the limiting factor. Suitable polycarbonate is either difficult to get hold of or expensive, so most people don't build arenas :(
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Re: Arenarules

Postby Remote-Controlled Dave » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:27 pm

I must say, the only reasons I haven't built an arena is that I don't drive, and it would just get stuck in my garage (a problem I already have with my heavyweights).
I've been toying a while with putting up funding for a "communial arena". Maybe a load of us could split the costs for a new one, and it could be built somewhere where it can easily be retrieved for any event its needed for, so in the garage of someone who comes to most events and can accomodate it. I don't know what others would think of this idea?

Also, the walls in Oliver's arena are DEFINITELY not 500mm! I would not object to an arena that had walls at this height. It wouldn't be my favourite option, as I do think it would suit certain robots over others (powerful flippers and vertical spinners), but I wouldn't object to it. I once built a pusher that managed to get its opponent over the walls in Oliver's arena!

I'd like to say thanks to Gary for summing up again, it may be a long post, but it makes everything very clear.
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